SALVATION BY BRUCE HURT

I) [Bruce Hurt wrote]:

"You believe a person can say "I believe" in a moment and like magic that

 assures they are forever in the kingdom of God having escaped the flames of
 eternal hellfire!"

[That's precisely what dozens of and dozens of passages in Scripture say beginning with Jn 3:16. Except the word is "believe" not just say "I believe" but to actually believe. And in a moment's time, the "magic" of God of my salvation unto eternal life was begun - never to be undone or unfinished because of the Sovereignty and Infinite Capacity of God. By the way, it indeed is like magic, for it is by the supernatural power of God and Him alone:

THE GREEK PHRASE RENDERED "WHOEVER BELIEVES" IN JN 3:16 NIV IS NOT A PRESENT TENSE VERB WHICH CONVEYS CONTINUOUS ACTION BUT A NOMINATIVE PRESENT PARTICIPLE - A NOUN PORTRAYING PUNCTILEAR ACTION CONVEYING 'THE BELIEVER', THE ONE WHO EXERCISED A MOMENT OF FAITH = A MOMENT OF MENTAL ASSENT IN JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, IN ORDER TO NEVER HAVE TO EXPERIENCE ETERNAL PERISHING BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. CONTINUOUS FAITH IN CHRIST IS NEITHER ATTAINABLE BY MORTAL MAN, NOR IN VIEW IN JN 3:14-16:

(Jn 3:13 NKJV) "No one has ascended to heaven but He Who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man Who is in heaven. (Jn 3:14 NIV) [And] just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, (Jn 3:15 NKJV) that whoever believes in Him should not perish but [should] have eternal life. (Jn 3:16 NIV) For God so loved the world that he gave His One and Only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but [should] have eternal life." =

(Jn 3:16 Greek) "HoutOs gar EgapEsen ho.Theos ton kosmon hOste ton Huion

............................"So ........for .loved ........the God ...the world ...that ....the Son

Hautou ton monogenE ........................edOken"

His ......the .unique [one and only]......He gave

hina pas ...........ho .pisteuOn ..........eis auton mE .apolEtai .....all' .echE .......zOEn aiOnion"

that .everyone the .believing [one] in Him ....not .may perish, but may have life ....eternal."

The Greek phrase from Jn 3:16, "Hina pas ...........ho .pisteuOn ..........eis .....auton"

.........................................................that everyone .the believing [one] on [in] Him"

rendered "that whoever believes in Him" in the NIV is literally "that everyone the believing [one]" from the Greek phrase "pas ho pisteuOn." The phrase consists of the relative pronoun "pas" = "everyone who" with the definite article "ho" rendered "the" with "pisteuOn," the present active nominative participle verb functioning as a noun, literally, "Everyone [who is] the believing [one]," i.e., everyone who is the believer in the Son of God being given for one's sins. So the Greek words which are rendered "whoever believes" in Jn 3:16 in the NIV do not contain a simple present tense verb as some contend in order to try to establish that one must maintain a constant state of believing so that one will continue to possess eternal life or lose it.
Read .]

II) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

"And that they can then spend the rest of their life denying the only Master
 and Lord Jesus Christ continually living in total depravity and utter
 abysmal licentiousness until they take their last breath (and drop off in to
 eternal hell fire because of their deception)."

[Sad for believers to act that way; but a number of them do. Nevertheless no matter how badly a believer behaves, he is indeed eternally secure as Scripture teaches properly read. No believer will "
drop off in to eternal hell fire because of their deception" - or anything evil. Remember that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world, (1 Jn 2:2). So the one who expresses a moment of faith alone in Christ alone unto eternal life is thereby totally forgiven of all of his sins - past, present and future, no matter what or how egregious the sin he has committed, commits and will commit. That's what the Bible actually teaches . It also sounds like you are condemning me just for expressing my theological / biblical point of view!! You seem to condemn me to hell with a tone of pleasure and satisfaction! Are you accusing me of denying Christ and living in total depravity and utter abysmal licentiousness!!! Wow. Where is your example of the grace and love of God toward me? You don't even know me. Well I ask you to learn and know what I have discovered what the Bible teaches on this - eternal security through a moment of faith alone in Christ alone . Consider if over the years - decades - of my living what you have accused me of: a proposed licentious, wanton, ungodly lifestyle denying God; could I have also produced all the works on this website that I have lived, studied and written. Take a look  - a good look: biblestudymanuals.net? Albeit you do not seem to want to investigate what I have done and continue to do being judge, jury and executioner. Would God have allowed me to have the insights into God's Word if I was totally turned against Him and His Son, Jesus? Am I a candidate for the Lake of Fire?]. Click on these points and see if they accurately reflect what the Bible teaches. I'll stand corrected. Do your homework - it's your responsibility.

ETERNAL SECURITY

DETAILED STUDY OF THE ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER

TABLE OF CONTENTS

1) CHRIST IS THE ONLY FOUNDATION OF AN INDIVIDUAL'S SALVATION THUS MAKING IT ETERNALLY SECURE

2) TOTAL AND EXCLUSIVE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD IN AN INDIVIDUAL'S SALVATION SECURES THAT SALVATION

WHAT GOD HAS DONE ALONE IN SAVING THE BELIEVER CANNOT BE UNDONE BY THE BELIEVER. ETERNAL SECURITY, THEREFORE, IS BASED UPON THE FACT THAT SALVATION DEPENDS ON WHO AND WHAT GOD IS AND DOES, NEVER ON WHAT MAN IS OR DOES.

3) SALVATION IS A FREE GRACE GIFT WHICH MAKES IT ETERNALLY SECURE

4) THE TOTAL DEPRAVITY OF MAN NECESSITATES THE ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER

5) THE BELIEVER IS IMMEDIATELY POSITIONED IN HEAVEN AT THE POINT OF SALVATION, THUS SECURING HIS ETERNAL DESTINY

6) SALVATION IS THE SURE HOPE OF THE BELIEVER BECAUSE IT IS BY A MOMENT OF FAITH ALONE

7) SALVATION, BEING BY GRACE, GUARANTEES THE ETERNAL DESTINY OF THE BELIEVER

8) THE FAITH WHICH AN INDIVIDUAL EXERCISES TOWARD CHRIST UNTO ETERNAL LIFE IMPLIES NO ACTION, NO CONTRIBUTION ON THE PART OF THE INDIVIDUAL, THUS SECURING IT SINCE GOD IS THE SOLE CONTRIBUTOR

FAITH UNTO SALVATION DEFINED

SALVATION IS DEPENDANT UPON THE OBJECT OF ONES FAITH NOT UPON SUPPOSED DIFFERENCES IN THE QUALITY OF THAT FAITH

9) ASSURANCE OF AN INDIVIDUAL'S SALVATION IS A RESULT OF THE ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER

10) UPON BELIEVING IN CHRIST AS SAVIOR THE INDIVIDUAL IMMEDIATELY BEGINS HAVING ETERNAL LIFE IN HIS MORTAL BODY - NEVER TO LOSE IT, SINCE IT IS ETERNAL

11) A BELIEVER HAS BEEN SAVED COMPLETELY IN THE PAST WITH ONGOING PRESENT RESULTS FOREVER

12) SALVATION IS A GIFT WHICH BY DEFINITION IS UNCONDITIONAL AND THEREFORE IS ETERNALLY SECURE

13) ETERNAL LIFE IS SPECIFICALLY DESCRIBED AS NOT OF ONESELF, NOT OF WORKS WHICH MAKES GOD THE SOLE AGENT IN ITS PROVISION - SECURING IT FOREVER

14) SALVATION IS DEFINED AS IRREVOCABLE

15) GOD PERMANENTLY INDWELLS AND SEALS THE NEWBORN BELIEVER AS A GUARANTEE OF ETERNAL LIFE

16) BELIEVERS ARE NOW DESCRIBED AS GOD'S POSSESSION IMPLYING ETERNAL SECURITY

17) BELIEVERS BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, JOINING THE ETERNAL FAMILY OF GOD, IMPLYING ETERNAL SECURITY

18) THOSE WHO BECOME BELIEVERS, I.E. ARE ELECT, WERE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S PERMANENT AND FINAL BOOK OF LIFE AND ARE BY DEFINITION ETERNALLY SECURE

FURTHER DETAILS ON THE VARIOUS BOOKS OF LIFE IN THE BIBLE

(TO COUNTER OBJECTIONS)

19) JUST AS PHYSICAL BIRTH IS IRREVERSIBLE, SO SPIRITUAL BIRTH IS IRREVERSIBLE

20) JESUS GAVE THE BELIEVER ETERNAL LIFE AND STATED THAT THAT INDIVIDUAL WILL NEVER PERISH

POINTS RE: THE ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER


III) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

"If that is all Jesus is to you -- a fire insurance policy and a free pass to

live like the devil all the rest of your days -- then simply stated your
Jesus is not the same as my Jesus.

Not even speaking of theology, such a belief is not even intellectually

logical."

[By the way, wouldn't you say that what is in view here - what I am writing about  is theological? After all it is about God and His One and Only Son being given for ones sins?? And did I say that that is all Jesus is to me??? No! Without knowing much about me, you seem so condemnatory that you condemn yourself. Remember the verse in Luke and elsewhere,  "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned."

If you were saved by grace through faith,
and
so far it is evident that you are not since you do not presently espouse what Scripture says to do in order to be saved unto eternal life, i.e., express a moment of faith alone in Christ alone + nothing as it stipulates in Jn 3:16 and hundreds of other verses , you would nevertheless and solely by the grace of God make it to heaven's shores no matter how unfaithful you were. For are not ALL sins of all of mankind, even Hitler's paid for - propitiated, (1 Jn 2:2)? And are not ALL of the sins, past, present and future forgiven unto eternal life for all who have expressed a moment of faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing ???? Can you outsin the cross???? For it is not by grace you have been saved through faith and that salvation is not of yourself, it is the gift of God and not by works, (Eph 2:8-9 )???

Whatever your source of information about how to go to heaven is, it is NOT the bible. The Bible must be read in accordance with the rules of language, context and logic - verbs and nouns, articles and adverbs, dictionary definitions; context - who, what, where, why, when, how, to whom - whether you like it or not . Hence the Jesus of the Bible is not your Jesus. My source is the Bible and my understanding of Who Jesus is is evidently accurate - biblestudymanuals.net - just go there, read what I have posted PROPERLY and compare it with the passages under view . By the way belief is logical or illogical depending upon the content of what you believe and the proper interpretation of the context - just check your local English dictionary. For example, one can believe that something is true but it may or may not be true. Nevertheless it exists as a legitimate belief, albeit there is the possibility that you are placing your faith in something that is not true. Furthermore, belief / faith / trust {synonymous} are exercised by the intellect, i.e., the mind. Dictionaries and the Bible define believing as exercising mental assent. What is your source for the meaning of words? And what one believes does not demand faithfulness to that belief. Some people believe that exercise is good for their health, yet many do not exercise all the time for their own particular reasons. That does not negate the legitmacy of what one believes, nor does stopping what one believes in negate the time that they believed. So salvation unto eternal life is based on this linguistic concept. (Read 1 Jn 5:9-13 properly.

Finally, thank God and His grace that His salvation is fire insurance. After so many years of studying God's Word and applying what I know, I look back decades ago when I was saved by grace through faith, not of myself, gift of God, not by works and am so glad, even joyful and assured that I am saved because it is after all fire insurance no matter what kind of despicable life I have led as you see it. Can you say the same? After all is said and done I know I cannot demonstrate by any means or feat that I deserve being present in heaven with God for the rest of my life at anything I have thought, said or done. Are you that much better than I am. You don't even know me!!!! Try and find out something about me before you put me in the Lake of Fire. BTW THAT'S GOD'S JOB, NOT YOURS!!!!!]


IV) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

And the apostle John also has a word that relates to those who profess Jesus

 and then progress to live like the Devil

[There you go judging me unto condemnation into hell WITHOUT EVIDENCE! OR EVEN SO MUCH AS A TRIAL SO I CAN DEFEND MYSELF! WHAT KIND OF gOD DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? Not the God that I know. After all, gods don't make it to heaven. Sinners do! What evidence do you have that I live like the Devil; that I do not have the Righteousness of Christ credited to my account, that I do not have the permanent indwelling of God the Holy Spirit Who guarantees my final, eternal redemption in heaven; that I am not already seated in the heavenlies after having believed in that gospel ]

V) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

And the apostle John also has a word that relates to those who profess Jesus

 and then progress to live like the Devil

7  Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices
 righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
 8  the one who practices sin is of the devil (COULD JOHN BE ANY MORE CLEAR
 ABOUT THE PERSON YOU THINK IS SAVED BY A PROFESSION IN A MOMENT AND THEN SPENDS THE REST OF HIS LIFE LIVING LIKE THE DEVIL!!!) ; for the devil has
 sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He
 might destroy the works of the devil.


[Wow. Because we differ theologically you presume / assume that I have and am living a life under God's eternal condemnation; an ungodly, licentious life full of egregious sinfulness, who denies Jesus Christ as Lord and Master????? You have never spent one second with me until now, know nothing about me except that you differ with me and with God's Word about what a man must do to be saved unto eternal life. And you condemn me for not living the kind of life you evidently claim to live - one of absolute faith and faithfulness, never practicing sin in order to secure eternal life??? Which the bible does not teach at all!!! ]

VI) Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

And the apostle John also has a word that relates to those who profess Jesus

 and then progress to live like the Devil

7  Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices
 righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
 8  the one who practices sin is of the devil (COULD JOHN BE ANY MORE CLEAR
 ABOUT THE PERSON YOU THINK IS SAVED BY A PROFESSION IN A MOMENT AND THEN SPENDS THE REST OF HIS LIFE LIVING LIKE THE DEVIL!!!) ; for the devil has
 sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He
 might destroy the works of the devil.
9  No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him;
 and he cannot sin

(HERE THE PRESENT TENSE CLEARLY IS CONTINUOUS!), because

 he is born of God. (YOUR FRIEND WHO IS CONTINUOUSLY SINNING IS IN A BIT OF
 TROUBLE THEOLOGICALLY)

[Wow. You have thoroughly condemned me without allowing me a proper defense from Scripture. Do you actually believe that you do not practice sin as you claim 1 Jn 3:9 says????
What about 1 Jn 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, [even for a moment] we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."


There you go again, misinterpreting the Bible and declaring the wrath of God on me unto eternal condemnation. Unlike the writer John, you have no compassion / no agape godly love for me - the very thing you condemn me for. Remember if you are not expressing godly love for me you are a child of the devil! Take heed!

Let's see what this passage in 1 Jn chapter 3 is really about: You can read key excerpts below or study it from the beginning here . Or don't read it. Suit yourself. But know this. Whoever is right on this will be blessed, and whoever is wrong will be all the more under God's wrath. I will stand corrected. Will you? Repent and do your homework.

****** KEY EXCERPT STUDY OF 1 JN CHAPTER 3 ******

(1 Jn 3:6 YLT) "[Everyone] who [abides] in Him [does] not sin; every one who [sins] [has] not seen Him, nor known Him [the Son of God].

[Every child of God, born of God while he abides in the Son of God - in His Word, i.e., obeys His commandments - albeit imperfectly - without perfect moments without sin while confessing his sins and walking in God's Light, albeit imperfectly - without perfect moments without sin, (1 Jn 1:8, 10), is characterized as not having sinned as a result of God's purifying grace through confession, (1 Jn 1:9). On the other hand, while a child of God, born of God sins without confessing them, he is characterized in his behavior / experience, (as opposed to his eternal state), as having not seen Him, or known Him in the sense of denying God's Absolute Righteousness, distancing himself in his mind from the truth about the Absolute Righteousness of God that he believed in to become a born of God, child of God]

(1 Jn 3:7 NASB) Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who [does acts of] righteousness is righteous, just as He [Jesus Christ] is righteous;

[Children of God, born of God should take heed to not be deceived by others and consider the truth of the matter that one who does acts of righteousness in the sense of abiding in His Word, obeying His commands, confessing sins, walking in His Light, albeit imperfectly - without perfect moments without sin, is righteous - as righteous as Jesus Christ is righteous - as a result of God's purifying grace]

(1 Jn 3:8 NKJV) He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned [lit., sins] from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

[Children of God, born of God while they commit sin - and they have the capacity to sin, (unlike the Son of God Who was wholly born of God without the capacity to sin) - are characterized as "of the devil" in their behavior / experience, not their eternal state. For the devil has sinned from the beginning. And for this purpose the Son of God, Jesus Christ was manifested in wholly Perfect Humanity that He might destroy the works of the devil - works which originated sin, lawlessness and rebellion against God, contaminating humanity and the whole world]

2) The Following Words From 1 Jn 3:9 Rendered, "Each One Who Has Been Born Of God Does Not Sin [At All] For His [God's] Seed Remains In Him; And He Cannot Sin, Because He Has Been Born Of God," Can Only Refer To The Son Of God, Jesus Christ.

(1 Jn 3:9 NKJV) "[Each One Who] has been born of God does not sin, for His [God's] Seed remains in Him; and He cannot sin, because He has been born of God." =

Since 1 Jn 2:28-3:8 has in view the stark contrast between the Son of God and His Righteousness and sin and the devil; and the battle between them - as exemplified by potential acts of sin and righteousness by the children of God, born of God wherein the nature from which comes sinful actions and the new born of God nature from which comes godly righteousness have both been in view in the children of God, born of God in First John up to this point.

and since the battle is between God and the devil:

the devil who sinned from the beginning - his works of originating sin, lawlessness and rebellion in himself and all of humanity against God, contaminating the whole human race and the world so that all of mankind are physically born with a sin nature which causes acts of sin;

and the Son of God, Jesus Christ Who in His Humanity was Wholly and Perfectly born of God, and remains Absolutely Righteous; Who came to destroy the works of the devil and to take away sin - to enable each individual to trust in His work to receive eternal life and thereafter to choose to abide in His Righteousness;

and since 1 Jn 3:9a and b stipulate, "Each One Who has been born of God does not sin, for His [God's] Seed remains in Him, indicating Absolute Sinless Perfection which is unlike the whole person of the children of God, born of God who can choose to sin or do righteousness - both sin and born of God natures in view in John's first epistle up to this point;

and since 1 Jn 3:9b goes on to say that God's Seed Who birthed His [Christ's] Humanity remains in Him Who insures and preserves the One born of God's Absolute Righteousness so that He does not sin - unlike the children of God, born of God who can choose to sin or do righteousness - both sin and born of God natures in view in John's first epistle up to this point;

and since 1 Jn 3:9c further stipulates that the One in view Who has been born of God does not sin, "cannot sin," which is unlike humanity after the Fall, and which is likewise unlike the child of God, born of God who is in a state of dichotomy - one part which cannot sin and the other part which sins all the time - both parts of which are in view in the whole person of the child of God, born of God in the context leading up to 1 Jn 3:9, (refs, 1 Jn 3:2-8; cf Ro 7:20-24; Gal 2:20);

and since 1 Jn 3:9 does not have in view the rest of mankind who will remain unsaved and cannot do any acts of godly righteousness and sins all the time;

then it is the One wholly born of God Who, in His Entirety, Who does not and cannot sin: Jesus Christ, Who is in view in 1 Jn 3:9. All who trust in Him for salvation unto eternal life will be justified unto His Righteousness unto eternal life; and through Him the works of the devil have been destroyed, enabling the child of God, born of God to choose to abide in God's Absolute Righteousness.

3) The Greek Words "Hamartian Ou Poiei" Rendered "Does Not Sin" In 1 Jn 3:9a Is A Present Tense, Third Person, Singular Verb Signifying The One Who Has Been Born Of God Does Not Sin With Neither The Appropriate Progressive Present Context Nor The Required Qualifying Words To Indicate "Does Not Practice" Or "Does Not Continue In Sin," Or 'Does Not Habitually Sin,' Etc., As Some Contend. For An Occasional Or Even A Single Additional Sin Would Still Qualify As "Continuing To Sin" or "Habitually Sinning" or "Practicing Sinning." Furthermore, These Insertions Into The Text Still Do Not Then Permit The Whole Person Of The Child Of God, Born Of God With Both Sin And Born Of God Natures To Be In View In 1 Jn 3:9, Because He Can And Still Does Choose To Do / Practice / Continue To / Habitually Sin According To 1 Jn 1:8, 10 Until Christ Appears When The Child Of God, Born Of God Will Be Like Him - Without Sin, (1 Jn 3:2)

(1 Jn 3:9 NKJV) "[Each One Who] has been born of God does not sin, for His [God's] Seed remains in Him; and He cannot sin, because He has been born of God." =

The Greek words "hamartian ou poiei" rendered "does not sin" in 1 Jn 3:9a rendered "Each One Who has been born of God does not sin" is a present tense third person singular verb signifying the one who has been born of God does not sin with neither the appropriate progressive present context nor the required qualifying words to indicate "does not practice" or "does not continue in sin," or 'does not habitually sin,' etc., as some contend, . Furthermore, to insist on renderings of 1 Jn 3:9a such as 'does not continue to sin, or 'does not habitually sin,' or 'does not practice sin' is to insist on that which does not permit an occasional sin or even a single additional sin. For an occational or a single additional sin would still qualify as "continue to sin" or "habitual sin" or "practicing sin." Thus the attempt to change the original Greek text to allow for an occasional sin or a single additional sin by the born of God, child of God does not succeed. In the final analysis the text does not permit any sin at all, excluding the child of God, born of God who still does choose to do / practice / continue to / habitually sin according to 1 Jn 1:8, 10 - leaving only the Son of God Who qualifies. Hence 1 Jn 3:9a is best rendered what it says: "does not sin," correctly indicating no commission of sins at all! Notice that a brother, a child of God, born of God is viewed in 1 Jn 5:16 as sinning a sin not unto death and also may be sinning a sin that may lead to premature physical death, evidently an ongoing activity. But nevertheless he is a brother - a child of God, born of God, secure in his possession of eternal life, (1 Jn 5:9-13).

Furthermore, the phrase in 1 Jn 3:9c rendered "and He cannot sin," confirms the absolutely sinless perfection of the One born of God in view in 1 Jn 3:8-9. He does not sin because He cannot sin! Note that according to the context in First John relative to the subject of children of God, born of God: they cannot claim at any time in their mortal lives that they cannot sin, nor to have no sin, nor to have not sinned, (1 Jn 1:8, 10); but instead they must use God's remedies for when they inevitably do sin which include walking in the Light of God's Absolute Righteousness, confession, etc., (1 Jn 1:7-2:2 ). Although individuals of flawed humanity can and have trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation unto eternal life and have become children of God, born of God, they nevertheless have retained their flawed human conditions until the time when Christ appears, (1 Jn 3:2), for their resurrection unto Perfect Humanity as Christ was born into.

Again, notice that a brother, a child of God, born of God is viewed in 1 Jn 5:16 as sinning a sin not unto early physical death and also may be sinning a sin that may lead to premature physical death; evidently it is an ongoing activity. But nevertheless he is a brother - a child of God, born of God, secure in his possession of eternal life, (1 Jn 5:9-13). Thus the interpretation that 1 Jn 3:9 and 5:18 have in view that a child of God, born of God does not sin, or does not practice / continue / habitually sin as some contend cannot be true otherwise there are innumerable contradictions throughout Scripture.

4) If Sinless Perfection On The Part Of The Child Of God, Born Of God - His Entirety / Both Sin And Born Of God Natures - Is In View In 1 Jn 3:9, Then There Would Not Be A Need For Much Of God's Word - Only Passages Which Lead Up To And Include Salvation. Thereafter Ones Becoming A Child Of God, Born Of God Would Be Perfect Without A Need To Exhort To Abide In Christ. But Such Cannot Be The Case, Unless Major Portions Of God's Word Are Misleading And Contradictory

(1 Jn 3:9 NKJV) "[Each One Who] has been born of God does not sin, for His [God's] Seed remains in Him; and He cannot sin, because He has been born of God." =

If sinless perfection on the part of the child of God, born of God is in view in 1 Jn 3:9, then there would not be a need for much of God's Word - only passages which lead up to and include salvation. Thereafter the born of God experience, the child of God, born of God, would be perfect with no need for instruction / correction / forgiveness of temporal sins, etc. So all of the passages exhorting believers to grow in the Word and abide in the Righteousness of the Lord would be of no value - even in error. Although sinless perfection of the entire child of God is claimed by some to happen automatically at the spiritual birthing experience; all of the passages which admonish a child of God not to behave like the world, such as 1 Jn chapter 2 and Romans chapter 6, would then be misleading one to think that a true believer could practice sin. So if children of God, born of God do not and cannot sin, then all of these oft ignored passages must be expunged from God's Word - including most of the New Testament epistles.

But such is not the case, children of God, born of God do sin and must remedy that situation by what God has provided for when they do sin via confession of sin:

1) [Compare 1 Jn 1:7-2:2]:

(1 Jn 1:7 NASB) "But if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, [One = God, with another = with each of we believers walking in the light], and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

(1 Jn 1:8 NASB) If we [should] say that we have no sin, we [deceive] ourselves and the truth is not in us.

(1 Jn 1:9 NASB) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1 Jn 1:10 NASB) If we [should] say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

(1 Jn 2:1 NASB) My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous;

(1 Jn 2:2 NASB) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

****** END KEY EXCERPT STUDY OF 1 JN CHAPTER 3 ******

VII) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

[1 Jn 3:10]  "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious:
 anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God (HOW MUCH CLEARER
 COULD JOHN HAVE BE
EN?) , nor the one who does not love his brother.
 (don't waste your time sending me material from the "free grace" people
 about how the parsing of the tenses don't mean what they mean especially in
 those "tough passages" in  1 John.)

[Nice wrench you have there. Is that how you clip your toenails - wrenching a toe out of its socket / context. That must be painful. Think again about context, context, context:

****** KEY EXCERPT STUDY OF 1 JN CHAPTER 3 ******

1 Jn 3:10a Does Not Refer Back To 1 Jn 3:9 To Conclude That Those Who Do Not Sin Are Children Of God, Born Of God. Otherwise With A Single Sin - A Continuance / A Practice Of Sin / An Habitual Sin Then An Individual Has Not Been Born Of God

(1 Jn 3:9 NKJV) [Each One Who] has been born of God does not sin, for His [God's] Seed remains in Him; and He cannot sin, because He has been born of God. (1 Jn 3:10a YLT) In this [is made manifest] the children of God and the children of the devil." =

Note that 1 Jn 3:10a, "In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest," is contended by some to refer back to the context of 1 Jn 3:9 in order to conclude the section with a statement that those who do not sin are children of God, born of God; otherwise with a single sin - a continuance / a practice of sin / an habitual sin then an individual has not been born of God, but is a child of the devil destined for the Lake of Fire. If this is correct, (and it is not), then 1 Jn 3:10a stipulates whoever is born of God and whoever is not, is determined by observation of one's own or someone else's behavior:

that which is absolutely sinless behavior proves out one who is born of God. (Some contend a continuation of sin, or a practice of sin, or habitual sin is in view. But all it takes is an occasional, even a single sin to become a continuation, a practice or an habitual sin).

otherwise with a single sin an individual is not born of God, but a child of the devil destined for the Lake of Fire.

Since all mankind aside from Jesus Christ in His Humanity remains capable of sin, with finite, flawed natures and mentalities, then no one is able to accurately discern who is sinless and who is not. Hence 1 Jn 3:9-10a cannot be a test to see if someone is saved, as there is nobody qualified in the human race to accurately perform or pass that test except Jesus Christ Himself Who is Wholly born of God. Furthermore if it is true that one becomes absolutely sinless as a result of becoming born of God, (and it is not), then no one as yet has become born of God except Jesus Christ Himself. So 1 Jn 3:10a is best understood as looking forward to a new section with 10b finishing the thought begun in 10a: "In this [is made manifest] the children of God and the children of the devil: [the one] who is not doing righteousness, is not of God, and he who is not loving his brother."

Therefore, 1 Jn 3:10a begins another section in First John. Note that the implication of 1 Jn 3:10 is therefore that a child of God, born of God is to abide in the Righteousness of the Son of God - in God's Word - a key message of 1 John.

(1 Jn 3:10) IN THIS THE CHILDREN OF GOD AND THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL ARE MANIFEST: THE POTENTIAL ACTIONS OF CHILDREN OF GOD, BORN OF GOD ARE IN VIEW. IF THEY ARE NOT DOING RIGHTEOUSNESS AND NOT LOVING THEIR BROTHER, THEN THEIR ACTIONS ARE NOT OF GOD BUT ARE CHARACTERIZED AS ACTING AS CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL

THE WORD RENDERED, "BROTHER," IMPLIES THAT CHILDREN OF GOD, BORN OF GOD ARE IN VIEW. ONE OF THE KEY ACTIONS WHICH A CHILD OF GOD MANIFESTS OF DOING RIGHTEOUSNESS IS BEHAVIOR WHICH IS CHARACTERIZED AS A CHILD OF GOD "LOVING HIS BROTHER."

(1 Jn 3:8 NKJV) "He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned [lit., sins] from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1 Jn 3:9 NKJV) [Each One Who] has been born of God [referring to the subject of the previous verse: the Son of God Who has been born of God, (Mt 1:20-23)] does not sin, for His [God's] Seed [the Holy Spirit, (Mt 1:20-23)] remains in Him; and He cannot sin, because He has been born of God, [Mt 1:20-23]. (1 Jn 3:10 NKJV) In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever [is not doing] righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother." =

Note that 1 Jn 3:10a, "In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest," is contended by some to refer back to the context of 1 Jn 3:9 to end this section of First John. If this is correct, then 1 Jn 3:10a stipulates whoever is born of God and whoever is not, is determined by observation of ones behavior:

that which is absolutely sinless behavior proves out one who is born of God. (Some contend a continuation of sin, or a practice of sin, or habitual sin is in view, but all it takes is one single sin to become a continuation, a practice or habitual).

otherwise with a single sin an individual is not born of God.

Since all mankind aside from Jesus Christ in His Humanity remains capable of sin, with finite, flawed natures and mentalities, then no one is able to accurately discern who is sinless and who is not. Hence 1 Jn 3:9-10a cannot be a test to see if someone is saved, as there is nobody qualified in the human race to accurately perform or pass that test except Jesus Christ Himself Who is Wholly born of God. Furthermore if it is true that one becomes absolutely sinless as a result of becoming born of God, (and it is not), then no one as yet has become born of God except Jesus Christ Himself. So 1 Jn 3:10a is best understood as looking forward to a new section with 10b finishing the thought begun in 10a: "In this [is made manifest] the children of God and the children of the devil: [the one] who is not doing righteousness, is not of God, and he who is not loving his brother."

So in the light of 1 Jn 3:8, "He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned [lit., sins] from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil," which has in view children of God, born of God while they commit sin being characterized as "of the devil," 1 Jn 3:10 repeats this message in another way: when children of God, born of God are not doing righteousness, nor loving their brother, (meaning fellow children of God, born of God, i.e., believers): they are characterized in their behavior / experience, as "children of the devil," and "not of God." Note that the Greek phrases in 1 Jn 3:10b rendered "is not doing righteousness" and "is not loving his brother" cannot be concluded to say 'if a person fails to continually do what is righteous' or 'if he fails to habitually love his brother,' as some contend, because both phrases are in the present tense with neither the appropriate progressive present context nor the required qualifying words to indicate "continually" or "habitually," . One key example that is notable when a child of God, born of God is not doing righteousness is stipulated in 1 Jn 3:10 as that of not loving his brother. The Greek phrase "estin ek tou Theou" is accurately rendered, "not of God," in the sense of not characteristic of godly behavior as opposed to "not born of God," as some contend. For the word rendered, "brother," implies that children of God, born of God are in view in 1 Jn 10, (cf. 1 Jn 2:9-11).

So the phrases "the children of God" and "the children of the devil" in 1 Jn 3:10a have in view a characterization of the potential behavior - the temporal experience of the child of God, born of God; and not his eternal status before God. So 1 Jn 3:9-10 cannot be used to accurately define whether or not an individual has trusted in Jesus Christ for eternal life or not, because those that have become children of God, born of God, can nevertheless commit sinful acts, (1 Jn 1:8, 10); and thereby they can act like children of the devil without distinction from the way those who are not born of God can behave. For sin is always, and only, a work of the devil and all sin finds it source in this adversary of God - even sins committed by children of God, born of God.

Since no one is able to accurately discern whether or not one is born of God through observation of their own or another's behavior, except God alone; then this cannot be a human test to see if another person is perfectly sinless, hence born of God. The only actual test of a person's salvation that author John and Scripture provides is the test of whether or not an individual expressed and recalls that expression of a moment of faith alone in Christ alone unto eternal life - albeit an imperfect self-test of the child of God, born of God, (1 Jn 5:1, 9-13 ).

So 1 Jn 3:9 which some contend is concluded by 1 Jn 3:10a cannot be a test at all, but a statement of fact that Jesus Christ, the Son of God Who was born of God into Perfect Humanity is the One for children of God, born of God to follow and abide in His Righteousness and not the evil of the devil who has sinned from the beginning. Therefore, 1 Jn 3:10a begins another section in First John. Note that the implication of 1 Jn 3:10 is therefore that a child of God, born of God is to abide in the Righteousness of the Son of God - in God's Word - a key message of 1 John:

1) [Compare 1 Jn 2:28-3:1]:

(1 Jn 2:28 NASB) "Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have [bold assurance] and not shrink away from Him in shame at His [appearing].

(1 Jn 2:29 NASB) If you know that He is Righteous, you know that everyone also who [does acts of] righteousness is born of Him.

(1 Jn 3:1 NASB) [Behold!] how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and .such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him."

By abiding in Him [Jesus Christ], (ref 1 Jn 2:1ff), by continuing to know that He is Righteous, (cf. 1 Jn 1:5-10), - the Righteous One, (1 Jn 2:1); children of God, born of God can manifest themselves as children of God - to God in an absolute manner, "because the world does not know us [children of God, born of God], because it did not know Him, (ref. 1 Jn 3:1c)." For all mankind is flawed in its reasoning, unable to accurately discern what is righteous and what is not.

On the other hand, the children of God, born of God have finite, albeit imperfect capacities to discern righteous acts within themselves and others by virtue of the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit, (1 Jn 2:27), through human resources through the Word of God. But when children of God, born of God who are nevertheless flawed individuals, do not do righteous acts it does not prove that they are not born of God, just that they for those moments are not of God in their behavior / experience. God's promise to them of eternal life remains intact because it is the promise of God, (1 Jn 2:25)."

****** END KEY EXCERPT STUDY OF 1 JN CHAPTER 3 ******

VIII) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

CONCLUSION - Either you are in grave error regarding the Gospel or I am, BUT
 we cannot both be correct! Your Gospel is definitely not the Gospel I
 proclaim and teach.

 I wonder how you can twist the present tenses in this passage...
 John 3:36 "He who BELIEVES (participle present active nominative masculine
 singular) in the Son HAS (indicative present active 3rd person singular)
 eternal life; but he who does not (ouk = absolutely does not) OBEY
 (participle present active nominative masculine singular) the Son will not
 see life, but the wrath of God ABIDES (indicative present active 3rd person
 singular ) on him."

[Let's see if you have interpreted this verse correctly]:

****** KEY EXCERPT STUDY OF JN CHAPTER 3 ******

XVIII) [Jn 3:36]:

(Jn 3:36 NAS) "He who believes in the Son has eternal life: [but] he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him"

(Jn 3:36 Greek) "Ho ..pisteuOn ..........eis ton huion echei zOEn aiOnion

............................"The believing [one] .on the Son ...has ...life ....eternal

ho .de ...apeithOn .......................tO ......huiO ouk .opsetai zOEn, all' .hE orgE ..tou theou menei ep' auton"

the and .not being subject [one] .to the Son ..not ..will see life, ....but the wrath of ..God ...stays .on .him.

A) THE BELIEVING ONE - THE ONE WHO HAS EXPRESSED A MOMENT OF FAITH ALONE IN THE SON'S ATONING SACRIFICE FOR SINS ALONE HAS IMMEDIATE POSSESSION OF ETERNAL LIFE AT THAT MOMENT AND FOREVER; BUT THE OPPOSITE: THE ONE WHO DOES NOT EVER OBEY THE SON - THE ONE WHO DOES NOT EVER CHOOSE TO BE SUBJECT TO THE SON'S REQUIREMENT TO BELIEVE IN HIM - THE ONE WHO WILL NEVER EXPRESS A MOMENT OF FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE IN ORDER TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE WILL NOT SEE THAT LIFE AND THE ETERNAL WRATH OF GOD REMAINS ON HIM FROM THE FIRST TIME HE REJECTED BELIEVING IN THE SON

(Jn 1:12 YLT) "But as many [individuals of His own creation, (Jn 1:11a)] as did receive Him to them He gave authority to become sons [lit., children] of God - to those believing in His name: (Jn 1:13 YLT) who - not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but - of God were begotten [born]... (Jn 3:14 NIV) [And] just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, (Jn 3:15 NKJV) that whoever believes in Him should not perish but [should] have eternal life. (Jn 3:16 NIV) For God so loved the world that he gave His One and Only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but [should] have eternal life. (Jn 3:18 NKJV) He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the [one and only] Son of God... (Jn 3:36 NAS) He who believes in the Son has eternal life: [but] he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." =

(Jn 3:36 Greek) "Ho ..pisteuOn ..........eis ton huion echei zOEn aiOnion

............................"The believing [one] .on the Son ...has ...life ....eternal

ho .de ...apeithOn .......................tO ......huiO ouk .opsetai zOEn, all' .hE orgE ..tou theou menei ep' auton"

the but .not being subject [one] .to the Son ..not ..will see life, ....but the wrath of ..God ...stays .on .him."

The Greek phrase "Ho pisteuOn eis ton huion" rendered "He who believes in the Son" in the NAS contains the nominative participle,"Ho pisteuOn," which literally means "The believing [one] (in the Son), portraying the individual who has expressed a moment of faith alone in the Son, Jesus Christ alone, i.e., the believer. And the result of that moment of faith alone in the Son alone is possession of eternal life forever, because it is eternal. The second half of verse 36 is presented in opposition to the first half. The Greek phrase "ho de apeithOn tO huiO" has the nominative present participle "ho de apeithon" which literally means "but the [one who is] not being subject [to the Son]," and rendered "[but] he who does not obey the Son" in the NAS. The conjunction of opposition "de" is best rendered "but," in Jn 3:36b which portrays the contrast between one who has believed in the Son and as a result has eternal life and one who will not see life and evidently has not ever believed. Since the phrase portrays the opposite of being the believing one, then the second half of Jn 3:36 has in view one who never chooses to be subject to the Son's requirement to believe in Him in order to have eternal life. God's eternal wrath remains on him from the first moment when he was able to choose to believe in the Son and rejected Him. So, in the context of John chapter three, the Greek nominative participle verb with the definite article "ho de apeithon," means "[but] the one who is the disbelieving [one]," i.e., the one who rejects the Son by not ever believing in Him. He has chosen to remain an unbeliever.

Note that the Greek verb.apeitheo, from which "apeithOn" comes, is frequently used in the New Testament to refer to the disobedience of unbelief - refusal in the mind to not give mental assent to the truth about Christ's atoning sacrifice for sins, (Acts 14:2; 17:5; 19:9; Ro 2:8; Heb 3:18). Just as the mental attitude of violating God's commandment to not covet is a disobedience of the mind of that commandment, (Ex 20:17); so the attitude of the mind of choosing not to be subject to the Son in the sense of not believing in Him is disobeying God's requirement to believe in His Son in order to receive eternal life.

The final phrase of Jn 3:36 is rendered "but the wrath of God abides on him" in the NAS. It indicates that the individual who has never expressed a moment of faith alone in the Son alone has never received the gift of eternal life; hence he has the wrath of God remaining upon him from that point in time in his life when he began to chose not to believe in God's Son; and he will remain subject to God's eternal wrath until he believes, if he ever does.

1) Compare [Jn 3:18]:

(Jn 3:18 NKJV) "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the [one and only] Son of God." 


****** END KEY EXCERPT STUDY OF JN CHAPTER 3 ******

IX) [
Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

Below is a quote which I promised to send you from Dr Zane Hodges ...
 Begin quote
 I have a friend, and more than a friend, a man who labored with me side by
 side in the ministry of God’s Word in the little group that has become
 __________ Bible Chapel and this friend has fallen away from the Christian
 faith. He graduated from Bob Jones University and from Dallas Theological
 Seminary. And about the time when he and his wife left Dallas his wife
 contracted a very serious illness which over the years got progressively
 worse until she was reduced to being a complete invalid, and after the death
 of his wife I visited my friend (who now lives in the Midwest and who
 teaches Ancient History in a secular university). And as we sat in the
 living room together, face to face, he told me very frankly but graciously
 that he no longer claimed to be a Christian at all, that he no longer
 believed the things that he once preached and taught, and the situation was
 even worse than he described because I heard through others that in the
 classroom on the university campus he often mocked and ridiculed the
 Christian faith. As I sat in that living room I was very painfully aware
 that it was impossible for me to talk that man into changing his mind. It
 was impossible for me to talk him back to the conviction he had once held.
 It was impossible for me to renew him to repentance. You want to find
 someone harder to deal with than an unsaved person? Find a person like
 that….Oh how disgraceful for a man to have known the truth and proclaimed
 the truth and then to deny the truth! He has put the Son of God to an open
 shame! Well you say, “I guess he’s headed for hell, right? I guess he’s
 headed for eternal damnation. He’s renounced his Christian faith.” Wait a
 minute. I didn’t say that, and neither does the writer of Hebrews. Let me
 remind you that Jesus said, “I am the bread of life. He that cometh to Me
 shall never hunger and he that believeth on Me shall never thirst” and He
 also said, “He that cometh to Me I shall in no wise cast out”…. God’s will
 is that He lose no one (John 6:37-40). He has never lost anyone and He never
 will! And I grieve because my friend and brother has lost his faith but
 Christ has not lost him. Do you believe in the grace of God?

 End quote
 We would all agree that this was a very sad and tragic case. It grieves the
 heart of every believer to see a man totally reject the things of Christ,
 the very Christ he once claimed to love. It must have been a heartbreaking
 experience for Hodges who once considered this man a co-laborer. Here was a
 man who no longer even professed that he knew God! He totally denied the
 Christian faith. He even mocked and ridiculed the Christian faith, that is,
 he taught against the truth of Christianity! Hodges believed that such a
 person could totally defect from the faith (total apostasy) and completely
 withdraw his Christian profession, and would ultimately be saved (Bible
 Knowledge Commentary, p. 795).
 In other words, this is the person that I presented to you in my original
 question and you said he was saved despite the subsequent anti-God, Christ
 denying profession! Amazing!

[Wow! Look up apostasy in the dictionary. Now consult your Bible. Where does it say that a true believer is not capable of total apostasy. Where does it say that Christians can only practice godliness and never lose their faith? If this is true, then why all the epistles / letters giving believers instructions on staying in the faith if all true believers will automatically always express saving faith and always be true to the faith?? You've made my point for me.

Besides that I have questions about this man whom I am familiar with. He was ejected from DTS for being a Calvinist; became Pastor of Believer's Chapel which I visited to hear him preach. I had discussions with him about Calvinism. TULIP is not the gospel of eternal life. But what a man does with his life is not absolute proof of whether or not his eternal destiny is heaven or hell. Assurance is based on personal remembrance of ones moment of faith alone in Christ alone + nothing 1 Jn 5:9-13
. That assurance is finite within the individual. Your observations of another's behavior are not going to determine his eternal destiny. For you cannot know the individual 24/7 like God can. Furthermore, to what extent must a man "not continue in sin?" to satisfy your requirement for him not being a "true" believer. Of course if you think ongoing faith / faithfulness is required in order to have / verify salvation unto eternal life, then you must agree that only the last second that you are alive will determine if you have not fallen away in one last moment of sin and lost your salvation or proved out that you were never saved in the first place. Unless you have been totally and completely saved through [a moment of faith alone in Christ alone] and unless that salvation was not of yourselves [excluding continuous believing and good works], and unless it was the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast; then Scripture stipulates you do not have salvation unto eternal life at all. Can you actually boast about your proposed perfect record of faith and faithfulness - even if God the Holy Spirit has forced you to continuously believe??? Seems like you have been right in front of my sinful nose!!!  My life cannot compare with yours. I am constantly confessing my short comings. But I have been constantly purified of all of my sins as well and have been credited with eternal righteousness unto eternal life no matter what. Thank God for His complete and forever grace.            

X) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

 Let's stop wasting time -- I am too busy teaching and writing commentaries
 and I am sure you have something better to do, so even if you write back a
 response (I suspect you might), do not expect me to waste any more time in
 trying to convince you to rightly divide the Word of Truth (2 Ti 2:15).
 Bruce

[Contending for the faith is never a waste of time. I too am busy. I don't multi-task, it is never a task for me to argue like Jesus argued - my Role Model. Teach me to rightly divide the Word of Truth but without a careful detailed properly read passages from Scripture. Oh, that's what you've been doing. Excuse my New York sarcasm. Feel free to copy a proper exegesis from Scripture from biblestudymanuals.net don't want the credit. Just thank the Holy Spirit whenever you find what I have posted in line with a proper interpretation of God's Word.]

XI) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

 One Postscript
 YOU WROTE:
 Now if continuous believing in Jesus Christ is necessary to provide one with
 a state of not perishing then Jn 3:16 must be changed to read "whoever
 continuously believes in Him will [future tense] not perish but will have
 [future tense] eternal life."
 Yes or no?

 Of course you know my answer is ""whoever continuously believes in Him."
 What you may not understand and seem to be "twisting" (or inverting) is that
 "my continuous believing" is not what saves me. It only demonstrates that I
 am truly saved. The only way I can continuously believe is because the Holy
 Spirit in me continually enables me to believe. Belief is supernatural and I
 am natural, therefore I must have a supernatural enablement to believe.

[To believe is not a supernatural operation by God upon an individual at any time. There are no dictionaries or passages in the Bible that indicate that believing / trusting / having faith in something / someone is anything but an exercise of man's volition / his free will. No where in the Bible does God override man's volition and force him to believe - before, during or after one is saved unto eternal life. If that were the case, then why give anyone - even the whole world - the opportunity to believe when God is only going to force a few - the elect - to believe; in the sense that no one can believe under their own auspices, i.e., free will, volition? Otherwise hundreds of verses in the bible would be hypocritical, even evil - to ask man to believe in God's one and only Son for eternal life when they are incapable of doing that unless God steps in and waves His magic wand. That makes man a robot. Calvin had some evil thoughts on this with TULIP /Calvinism when he indicated that since man cannot please God because he is totally depraved, and since saving faith is what He requires of man to express, then God must first force man into becoming born again whereupon the individual has been programed by God to believe in His Son . So there really is no grace, only robotics in view. But since only the elect will be forced to  be born again transformed and thereby forced to believe supernaturally, so the rest of mankind will suffer the eternal condemnation consequences in the Lake of Fire without a chance to choose to believe - because they cannot??? So God did NOT so love the world, He only loved the elect - well, as soon as He transformed them into robots. And so most of whoever of the world CANNOT / WILL NOT believe because they will not be forced supernaturally to believe. So the Jn 3:16, the grace of God, the love of God for the rest of the world & the rest of the Bible is a lie.

XII) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

 Or
 to say it another way "I continually believe (enabled continually by the
 Spirit)
because I am genuinely saved. I do not continually believe to merit,
 earn or deserve salvation, for then salvation would be "faith + works", but
 it is only by faith.


[Nope. Believing is volitional. The Holy Spirit is NOT going to force you against your will to believe or not believe. Every passage in the Bible that tells one to do something to believe unto salvation, to be a faithful believer ALL imply that the individual has a choice. Otherwise there is no point to the Bible at all! Just make mankind into a bunch of good behaving robots! Or let each one choose of his own free will to believe and be saved and agree to be changed into an individual who will always choose of his own volition to do godly things. You have not been changed into a robot, with your volition /  your will removed - taken out of you! Name a passage in the Bible which teaches any of this! Furthermore, no believer can claim to have a sinlessly perfect record of faith in Christ regardless if it is their own operation under their own auspices or their claim to have Holy Spirit enablement:

H) (1 Jn 1:8) IF WE CHILDREN OF GOD, BORN OF GOD INCLUDING APOSTLES SAY THAT WE HAVE NO SIN - IN THE SENSE OF HAVING NOT COMMITTED A SINGLE SIN WITH A PARTICULAR TIMEFRAME IN VIEW, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US - AND NEITHER FOR THE MOMENT IS FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD

(1 Jn 1:6 NASB) "If we [should] say that we have fellowship with Him and.yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not [do] the truth; (1 Jn 1:7 NASB) but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, [One = God, with another = with each of we children of God, born of God walking in the light], and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 Jn 1:8 NASB) .If we [should] say that we have no sin, we [deceive] ourselves and the truth is not in us." =

[Variant "the truth of God" in some miniscules and syr - little support, unnecessarily expanded the word "truth." The shortest reading is best]

After enlightening children of God, born of God in 1 Jn 1:5-7 on how to have fellowship with God by their unceasing acknowledgment that God is Perfect Light / Absolute Righteousness, and by unceasing acknowledgment that they constantly fall short of His Absolute Righteousness and need unceasing cleansing of their sins by the blood of Jesus God's Son; author John returns in 1 Jn 1:8 to children of God, born of God' (including apostles') tendency - even those who have a consistency of being in fellowship with God, to deceive themselves when they falsely consider themselves free of committing acts of sin; when they falsely think that they do not need continuous cleansing from "the blood of Jesus Christ."

The first phrase in verse 8, "If we [should] say that we have no sin" comprises the first clause of a 3rd class If-Then statement. The Greek words "ean eipOmen" rendered "If we [should] say" is in the aorist tense and the subjunctive mood, conveying a completed action of maybe we do say, and maybe we do not say. The subjunctive mood of objective possibility conveys a message of children of God, born of God potentially making a statement that they have no sin, [sin, singular conveying that the child of God, born of God no longer bears present guilt for some particular sin - any sin*]" For the Greek words "hamartian ouk echomen" rendered "we have no sin" is in the present tense conveying a moment in time when one thinks there is not a single sin that one can be held accountable in a timeframe they falsely perceive as one of sinless perfection.

*Although the sin nature, the principle of sin that pervades all mortal humanity except Jesus Christ is present even in children of God, born of God including the apostles; nevertheless the phrase rendered "we have no sin," in the NASB does not refer to the presence of the sin nature / the sin principle within one, as some contend. For the Greek phrase transliterated "ouk echomen hamartian" lit. "sin not we have" and rendered "we have no sin" in the NASB, occurs elsewhere in the New Testament in John's Gospel, (cf. 9:41; 15:22, 24; 19:11). In all these places, the obvious meaning is to bear present guilt for some particular sin - any sin, implying that the phrase rendered "we have no sin," in 1 Jn 1:8 implies the false idea that a child of God, born of God experiences moments of sinless perfection.

A child of God, born of God may not be conscious of any acts of sin in his life, or maintain that he no longer has a sin nature which produces acts of sin; or he may think that he has overcome his sin nature with his new nature via the indwelling Holy Spirit  for a period of time in order to achieve moments of sinless perfection. Some might even falsely contend that they are beyond the categories of good and evil because they possess the Spirit of God or have achieved some kind of spiritual transcendance. But whatever one thinks does not contradict the fact that while in one's mortal body, one nevertheless has a sin nature, commits sin all the time, and constantly falls short of the glory of God - His Absolute Righteousness all the time - children of God, born of God including apostles (as well as all unbelievers). This is clearly and repeatedly conveyed in Scripture, (1 Jn 1:10; even admitted to by the apostle Paul after he became a child of God, born of God and an apostle: ref. Romans chapter 7 ).

The second clause of the If-Then statement contains two phrases, "we [deceive] ourselves and the truth is not in us." It declares the result of when we children of God, born of God do say that we have no sin: we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." It brings out into the light those children of God, born of God who have wilfully hidden their mentalities from the sphere of light in which God dwells - the sphere of His Absolute Righteousness, which sphere man cannot attain under his own auspices in his mortal life. This is man's typical self deception - his arrogance - which serves to puff himself up to think that he has committed no sin for a period of time - that he has no sin nature or has overcome it if he is a child of God, born of God with the new nature within him that the Holy Spirit has provided . The Greek word "heautous" rendered "ourselves" is the first word in the second clause, "we [deceive] ourselves and the truth is not in us." It is in an emphatic position emphasizing that such a self deception is deliberate and wilful, bearing no resemblance to the truth nor to innocence. Such children of God, born of God are in danger of becoming progressively delusional and evil as the timespan that they claim to be without sin increases.

So when children of God, born of God feel close to God, they should nevertheless remember that a closeness with God, i.e., genuine fellowship with Him is not due to their being free of sin - without acts of sin being committed by them, or by some kind of feeling based on emotion or some unbiblical idea. Fellowship with God only comes to a child of God, born of God via confession to God Who is Light / Absolute Righteousness, and out of the grace of God because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, His Son, which cleanses us from all sin, (1 Jn 1:7). Fellowship does not result from how good the child of God, born of God behaves or feels but how much more he is focused upon God's Absolute Righteousness as compared with the evil nature of his own thoughts, words and deeds which he acknowledges to God.

(1 Jn 1:10) IF WE SHOULD SAY THAT WE HAVE NOT SINNED - CLAIMING PERIODS OF SINLESS PERFECTION - WE MAKE GOD OUT TO BE A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US RELATIVE TO THIS MATTER

(1 Jn 1:10 NASB) "If we [should] say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."

The first phrase in verse 10, "If we [should] say that we have not sinned" comprises the first clause of a 3rd class If-Then statement. The Greek verb form "ean eipOmen" rendered "If we should say" is in the aorist tense and the subjunctive mood conveys a completed action of maybe we do say, and maybe we do not say. The subjunctive mood of objective possibility - a message of children of God, born of God' potential of making a statement that they have not sinned - a potential of claiming the experience of a period of sinless perfection. For the Greek words "hEmartEkamen" rendered "we have not sinned" is in the perfect tense conveying a moment in time when sinless action began in the past and which continues through the present. This denial of committing sin might even be a denial that we children of God, born of God have ever or at anytime sinned. So if instead of confessing as sin what the light of God has shown us to be sin, if we children of God, born of God categorically deny the testimony of God's Word and the message in our minds given to us by the Holy Spirit about our falling short of the Absolute Righteousness of God, then the result will be as stated in the second clause:

The second clause of the If-Then statement, "we make Him a liar and His word is not in us," declares the result if we children of God, born of God do say that we have not sinned then we make God out to be a liar and His word is not in us, implying that God and His Word which characterize all men as constantly sinful, committing sins all the time without the possibility of moments of sinless perfection are liars. By denying that testimony of God, we in effect charge God with untruthfulness, untrustworthiness and evil. Note that the extant nature from which comes sinful actions and the new born of God nature from which comes godly righteousness have both been in view in the children of God, born of God in First John up to this point.

PAUL REITERATES A MAIN THEME OF ROMANS CHAPTER 7: THE CONFLICT WITHIN EVERY BELIEVER BETWEEN THE MINDSET WHICH SERVES THE LAW OF GOD - WANTING TO DO GODLY GOOD - AND THE FLESH - THE MINDSET WHICH DIRECTS THE BODY TO SERVE THE LAW OF SIN, THE PRINCIPLE THAT THE MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF THE BELIEVER CONSTANTLY PRACTICE SIN

(v. 3:21 NIV) But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. (v. 3:22 NIV) This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, (v. 3:23 NIV) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (v. 3:24 NIV) and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus... (v. 7:5 ASV) For when we were in the flesh, [= controlled by the sinful nature within], the sinful passions, which were through the Law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death... (v. 7:14 NKJV) "For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am carnal, [having been] sold under sin. (v. 7:15 NKJV) For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will [= want] to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do... (v. 7:17 NKJV) But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. (v. 7:18 ASV) For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but [in me] to do that which is good is not. (v. 7:19 NKJV) For the good that I will [want] to do, I do not do; but the evil I will [want] not to do, that I practice. (v. 7:20 NKJV) Now [but] if I do what I will not to do [= don't want to do], it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. (v. 7:21 KJV) I find then a law, that, when I would [want to] do good, evil is present with me. (v. 7:22 NKJV) For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. (v. 7:23 NKJV) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (v. 7:24 NKJV) O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? (v. 7:25) I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." =

To conclude this section of his letter, (chapter 7), author Paul reiterates the main theme: the conflict within him and every believer: "So then with the mind, I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin."

The law of God referred to in verse 7:22 is a principle that declares that everything that is of God is holy, just and good because anything of God must reflect His character. And with the mind, the center of cognitive decision making, Paul says, he serves the law of God by delighting in it, and wanting to follow it, (cf 7:15-16, 18-22).

On the other hand, at the same time of serving the law of God with his mind, Paul stipulates in 7:25b that "with the flesh [he serves] the law of sin." The word "sarki" rendered "flesh" in this part of verse 7:25 is the same root word of "sarkikos", lit. "fleshly," rendered "carnal" in verse 7:14 in the NKJV which indicates the members of the body which demonstrate the activity controlled by that part of an individual believer's mentality which has been sold under sin, i.e., controlled by the sin nature. Previously the same root word, "sarki" rendered "flesh" in verse 7:5 was defined as that part of a believer's mentality [as well as all men] that is controlled by the sin nature and is demonstrated via sinful activity in the members of the physical body, i.e., the flesh.

1) [Compare Ro 7:5]:

(v. 7:5 ASV) "For when we were in the flesh, [= controlled by the sinful nature within, (cf. Ro 6:20] the sinful passions, which were through the Law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Notice that being "in the flesh" is defined as having the sinful passions cause the members of the body to bring forth fruit unto death, i.e., acts of sin. In Ro 7:5, Paul is speaking of himself and fellow believers using the personal pronoun "we" with the past tense phrase "were in the flesh" to indicate the time before they were believers. This includes himself.

2) [Compare Ro 6:19]:

"I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness."

The Greek word "sarkos" literally, "flesh", rendered "natural selves" in the NIV in Ro 6:19 is defined in this verse as that part of the believer which can choose to be enslaved to impurity and ever-increasing wickedness or to righteousness leading to holiness. The part of an individual which can choose to be enslaved "to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness" or "to righteousness leading to holiness" must be a part which is exclusively located in the mind of an individual where only that cognitive function exists in man. Hence the term "sarkos" literally "flesh" and rendered "natural selves" in the NIV, refers to an activity of the mind. Previously the same root word, "sarki" rendered "flesh" in verse 7:5 was defined as that part of a believer's mentality [as well as all men] that is controlled by the sin nature and is demonstrated via sinful activity in the members of the physical body, i.e., the flesh.

Verse 7:25b goes on to say that with the flesh Paul as an example of believers serves the law of sin. The law of sin was stipulated previously as expressed in the members of the believer's body. It refers to the principle, i.e., constant pattern of behavior which Paul has repeatedly established in this chapter, namely that the members of an individual's body, (believer's are in view) - which encompassess everything from head/mind to toe which expresses thoughts, words and deeds - practices sin, (cf. Ro 7:19). Note that it is not the members of the body which choose to practice sin, although they are evidenced and often observed to sin. That decision is a function of the headquarters of human decision: the mind.

XIII) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:
                          
Or

 to say it another way "I continually believe (enabled continually by the
 Spirit)
because I am genuinely saved. I do not continually believe to merit,
 earn or deserve salvation, for then salvation would be "faith + works", but
 it is only by faith.

[Exercising faith in something can never be considered contributory to something. I believe the sun is shining - I had nothing to do with the properties or position of the sun or the clouds. Even being enabled to continually believe by the Spirit is not a contributory thing - if that were true to Scripture - and it is not. Check your dictionary, check your bible - faith is NOT a work ever! Nor is it outside of the exercise of the human will]


XIV) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

Paul said something similar in Galatians 3:3 "Are you
 so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the
 flesh?" Of course not!

[What Paul said in Galatians 3:3 is not similar or even close to the unscriptural concept of the robotic intentions of the indwelling Holy Spirit in forcing the believer to continue to exercise faith in Christ at all!!!! Gal 3:3 has to do with believers reverting from being saved by faith alone back to doing works of law such as keeping the Law of Moses in order to be and continue to be saved unto eternal life. It has nothing to do with the unscriptural idea that the Holy Spirit supernaturally imposes His power upon the believer in order to make him believe in Christ continually, bypassing his volition, in order to preserve his salvation]:

(Gal 3:1 NASB) "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as [having been] crucified?

(Gal 3:2 NASB) This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of [law], or by hearing with faith?

[Notice that the keeping of law [without the definite article] is in view which includes the Law of Moses or any human doing; and not continually believing via the miraculous imposition of God the Holy Spirit in order to supernaturally force the believer to keep on believing in Christ in order to assure that the believer stays saved; which the latter is no where in Scripture - nor is the notion that the believer can lose his salvation if he does not continually exercise it 24/7 ]

(Gal 3:3 NASB) Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

In Gal 3:3a, Paul again refers to the Galatian believers as foolish, "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit." When each one of the Galatians believed in Christ Jesus, it began the indwelling of and the work of the Spirit of God in them, including miraculous spiritual gifts which were notably exercised by them, (ref. Gal 3:5). And it was God through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone apart from human doing, Who credited each believer with the Righteousness of Christ, (Phil 3:9). And it was the Spirit of God Who provided the capacity within each believer in order to perfect each one unto temporal righteousness moment to moment as the believer walks by faith. And this endeavor varies from day to day, believer to believer in accordance with the believer's volition, not by dint of the Spirit taking over the operation of the believer! For Since scripture everywhere addresses the consequences of unfaithful and faithful behavior in the believer ; then it is up to the believer to continue to believe and be faithful. Otherwise if this were up to the Holy Spirit, God is flawed. And all of this was a result of each one having expressed a moment of faith alone in Christ Jesus alone - apart from human doing!

Whereupon, Paul then wrote in Gal 3:3b, "are you now being perfected by the flesh?" i.e., are you now going to try to perfect yourself by your own efforts without the Spirit of God by attempting to keep the Law of Moses apart from the grace of God? The answer to the question is a rhetorical "no!"

Notice the context is believers doing works of law - even the Law of Moses - in order to be / continue to be justified / saved unto eternal life - which works / the Law of Moses - never was a means by which one might be saved unto eternal life]

XV) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

"I begin believing by the Spirit and am being

 progressively sanctified by the same Spirit, by grace through faith and not
 the result of works."

[Again. Every salvation passage provides the opportunity to all individuals of the whole world of their own volition to choose to believe and be saved or not - implying having reached the age of accountability. This implies that all man have the capacity to believe and be saved - those of accountable age. So an offer is made and the individual may choose to believe or not. There is no forceful entry here by the Spirit upon the will of the individual. Persuasion - a drawing from God to certain ones does occur , but never forceful entry upon the mind where believing occurs - neither to receive nor retain eternal life once received by a moment of faith alone in Christ alone. Thereafter, the Spirit seals the believer unto his eternal destiny, . Yet it is still up to each believer to follow the leading of the Spirit within him to grow in the faith which has nothing to do with the eternal security of the believer which is based on God alone 
.

You don't appear to be reading Scripture very well. Take a look:
 
John 3:16-18 (NASB)
16  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17  "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18  "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God is awaiting those who choose to believe of their own volition. Until they do they remain under His condemnation.

XVI) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

So in a sense what you are saying with your teaching is
that the omnipotent Spirit is impotent, unable to energize belief in these
people in whom He initially energized saving faith!

[I am only reporting what Scripture teaches. Are you saying that God's Word is impotent ????

Or do you not understand that God's Sovereignty decreed that He would fulfill His purposes without forcing man to believe in His Son, leaving it up to each individual to choose of his own volition and believe or not. Do you understand why? BTW God's grace is impotent if He has to force men to believe and keep believing. I would not dare to say "Isn't God wonderful, he forced me to believe and continues to force me?" And what would the Devil have to say to that. First of all, he would demand his freedom to do what he wants to do because God could not get anyone to believe in His Son without forcing them to believe. Why send the Devil to the Lake of Fire? Why didn't God simply create a bunch of robots including the angels?


XVII) [Bruce Hurt further wrote]:

People with the continually indwelling Holy Spirit continuously living unholy lives is absurd and counter-intuitive not to mention theologically erroneous (not according to me but to someone named Apostle Paul)!"

[Did you know that the Epistles of the Greek Bible, the so called New Testament, are largely instructional to church age believers commanding them how to conduct themselves in faithful living in Christ. On the other hand, if as you indicate there is a guarantee through the "continually indwelling Holy Spirit" that believers will not live "continuously unholy lives," rather live faithfully; then tear those letters right out of your Bible. You don't need them! Don't even read them, or even glance at them. They might destroy your misplaced confidence in the so called spirit you claim keeps you believing and faithful despite your potential capacity to sin - your sin nature. But I know that I need them because the Bible says so.
This is as you said, "
(not according to me but to someone named Apostle Paul)!" Remember, Paul wrote Romans chapter 7. Do you recall?? This is what he said when he was a born again believer, ABOUT HIMSELF!!!!! AFTER HE BECAME A BELIEVER AND AN APOSTLE:

Romans 7:14-25 (NASB)
14  For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15  For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16  But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17  So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18  For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19  For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20  But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21  I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22  For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23  but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24  Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

Now don't go all theological on me - this is autobiographical:
[Expositor's Bible Commentary States]:

Ro 7:21-25 ''' "So I find this law at work." The language clearly indicates a purpose to summarize what has gone before. So far, the law under discussion is the law of Moses, but here a specialized meaning—that of principle (cf. 3:27; 8:2)—is intended. This usage makes it necessary, when speaking once more of the (Mosaic) law, to call it "God's law" (v. 22) for the purpose of differentiation. In Paul's inner being the divine law is welcome and brings delight, but that which manifests itself in the bodily members (what may be called the outward man) is the law (principle, or perhaps authority) of sin. It is a state of war and he finds himself a captive (cf. the earlier figure of a slave in v. 14) to the imperious operation of sin. The agony of this unhappy condition comes out in the cry "What a wretched man I am!" It is a powerful and moving cry, recalling the words of Isaiah when he became aware of his sin (Isa 6:5). Since Paul is unable to help himself he must look elsewhere. In this verse and the next one the "I" is clearly the man himself, which warns us against trying to analyze the "I" at earlier points in the chapter in schizophrenic terms. "The source of Paul's wretchedness is clear. It is not a `divided self,' but the fact that the last hope of mankind, religion, has proved to be a broken reed. Through sin, it is no longer a comfort but an accusation. Man needs not a law but deliverance" (Barrett).

Paul has passed beyond his description of the unsaved state and is now giving attention to sanctification and its problems; so the theme is really relevant only to believers. That conflict of the sort described here can and does characterize the Christian life is apparent elsewhere in Paul, especially in Galatians 5:17:

[Compare Galatians 5:17 (NASB)

"For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."

A person desiring holiness of life, as pictured here, could only be a believer, for the unsaved person does not long for God but is hostile toward him.

The close of the chapter, in terms of the text as it stands and without attempted rearrangement, acknowledges the [believers'] deliverance in Christ, yet goes on to state the very problem sketched in vv. 14-24 as though it continues to be a problem for one who knows the Lord."